Thank you for your enquiry, this sounds like a difficult
one, however, I shall try and answer it for you!
You say you have “Grabbing of the rubber on the surface”
Well this sounds to me like your polish is far too thick, you should and I
would suggest, that you thin the polish from what I assume is purchased
French polish by 25% with Methylated spirits, as this will help the French
polish to flow through the rag more evenly.
Or perhaps you have thinned your French polish out too
much? Which is causing the surface to melt the French polish on which you are
trying to apply?
Another cause could be that you are not using linseed
oil? I have tried other oils and I always come back to Linseed oil as this
gives me the best result.
You say that you have “Changed your rag etc.” And I hope
you are using wadding inside?
Another point is always to use the best quality white sheeting
you can buy as this will give you a superior finish.
When you polish you should be able to see the width of
the rubber showing in the oil streaks as you build up the finish, if you are
not seeing these oil trails as you use your rubber then you are not using
enough oil.
Or it could be that you are applying too much pressure
whilst French polishing? This is another cause for the dragging effect.
French polishing must be carried out in a warm
environment this is not always possible here in the UK as we have such cold
days and like my workshop, it is often freezing cold and therefore very
difficult to French polish in.
How to remedy this well you will need to have adequate
heating throughout all the polishing stages and then continue to keep the
furniture warm whilst it is drying especially overnight in a cold damp climate
like England.
I am not sure as to how much experience you have as a
French polisher? These problems arise
once in a while and can drive us mad as I know only too well.
Make a brand new rubber from scratch using new cotton
wool and the best white rag you can get hold of nylon is useless for French
polishing.
Always store your rubber in an airtight container when
not in use, I would suggest that you change the white rag on your rubber more
frequently, as the surface becomes clogged and over oiled and this stops the
French polish from passing through the rag and onto the surface, and therefore
a poorly finished surface is all you will be left with.
My last thoughts on this topic are that you could have
purchased a bad batch of French polish?
Check to see if the manufacturers have had any problems or complaints
from other French polishers? Or you may have kept your polish for far too
long? And as a result, the mixture has
become useless.
I hope I Have answered all of your questions? And that I have been of some help to you?
Thank you for taking the time to read my Blogs I
really appreciate it.
Regards, Andrew.
Feedback is most welcome!
Thanks, Andrew. I will digest this and try a few things this evening, then get back to you. Cheers, Peter
ReplyDeleteWell, I made a good recovery though I can't tell you exactly what was the cause. Obviously, this is worrisome: I feel that I am operating on a narrow plateau with precipitous drops either side (a so-called metastable equilibrium).
ReplyDeleteSince I started a few months ago, I have changed and (I hope) optimised most of the variables, so I didn't change the pad (wool) or the cloth (washed-out fine white tee-shirt material). However I did wash the pad in meths and dry it, and I used a new cloth. I switched to a new batch of '1 lb cut' shellac ( I made myself), and in tests over the weekend this did seem to work better than the old batch.
I raised the shop temperature (with a fan heater) to 22-24 C which seems to be optimal, but I stopped the air circulation while polishing as still air seems to be better.
I did increase the (walnut) oil on the cloth from a light smear to a couple of heavy smears, as this seemed to make a significant difference, and whenever I felt any 'drag' or the cloth emitted a scraping sound (a sure sign of removing polish) I eased off the pressure on the rubber.
I also increased the dosage from 6 to 9 drops. This amount results in a creaking sound from the strands of the (loose ball of) wool in the pad rubbing together, which I have come to associate with a stable condition, whereby the pad and cloth don't get (too) wet and there is little build-up of shellac on the periphery of the rubber.
So far, so good. I'll check in again tomorrow after a couple more sessions.
Peter, thanks for your reply, just a quick tip use Linseed oil instead of walnut oil let me know how you get on with your next reply.
ReplyDeleteRegards, Andrew.
Thanks for suggesting linseed oil. Based on a 15 minute session, raw linseed oil seems to work much better than walnut oil. My impression is that linseed oil makes the polishing process more robust and widens the plateau of stability. More after pushing the limits this evening.
ReplyDeleteWhat can I say! Linseed oil is best! Seriously though, it makes the french polishing process go incredibly smoothly, so I am retiring the walnut oil tomorrow. As well, the cloth cover lasts at least 4 times longer than it does with walnut oil.
ReplyDeleteAs a matter of interest, do you know why linseed oil works so well?
Also, should I remove the oil from the surface of the piece when I leave the polish to harden for a few days? I am afraid that the oil will dry (crosslink) pretty quickly.
Thanks again, Andrew.
Cheers, Peter
Hello Peter,
ReplyDeleteGlad to be of service, I am pleased that you have now changed to Linseed oil as walnut oil is a waste of time! I don't know where you learned this from? Linseed oil works better because if you use the boiled Linseed oil it is heated using a fanned hot air process that helps the oil to dry better and therefore I fell it is much more refined.
Also I think it works better as it has a much oilier texture about it thus allowing it to flow easier with the rubber.
Yes you must always remove any oil on the polished surface, for if you don't it will leave streaks that never truly disappear. During the final stages of polishing change your rag and this will ensure that the oil should be removed.
Thanks for your very interesting questions.
Regards Andrew.
Hello, Andrew. Could I ask a couple more questions?
ReplyDeleteHave you found boiled linseed oil to perform significantly better than raw linseed oil, which I used very successfully? The raw oil does indeed have a much oilier texture than walnut oil, and based on the results I got, it's probably oily enough.
I have one concern. As I was removing a nib with some fine sandpaper, I noticed that the interlayer adhesion is poor for the top layers which I applied with linseed oil. I did remove any oil with a little white spirit on a paper towel between sessions, which means that the oil didn't sit here for more than 18 hours: do you think that I should have removed it straight after the session? (The alternative, that it is getting under the shellac during the rubbing process, is worrying.)
regards, Peter
Hello Peter,
ReplyDeleteI have found that both Boiled and raw linseed work well, and I have even tried Sunflower oil when I ran out of linseed and it still worked fine.
You should always remove any oil on the polished surface and never leave it to dry in the surface finish as this will leave streaks etc.
Poor adhesion well that is because you let the oil sit on the polished surface for far too long, and that is why you are having these problems.
Sometimes it is better to start from scratch by stripping it back and start again, using good quality French polish and linseed oil.
I hope this will be helpful? Thanks for becoming a follower much appreciated.
Just as a matter of interest do you live in the UK? As it is nice to see from which Countries readers come from.
Regards. Andrew.
Hi Andrew,
ReplyDeleteI live in York, UK.
There are some recommendations on the web to use olive oil, though I haven't tried to date. Olive oil is not considered a 'drying oil' as its composition = % range [main constituent]
- saturated fats = 8% - 26% [palmitic]
- monounsaturated fats = 55% - 86% [oleic]
- polyunsaturated fats = 4% - 22% [linoleic & α-linolenic]
Linseed oil contains:
- The triple unsaturated α-linolenic acid (51.9-55.2%),
- The saturated acids palmitic acid (about 7%) and stearic acid (3.4-4.6%),
- The monounsaturated oleic acid (18.5-22.6%),
- The double unsaturated linoleic acid (14.2-17%)
so it is highly unsaturated and as such is very effective as a drying oil.
Walnut oil is about 50% linoleic.
Iodine number is an indicator of the number of double bonds in the oil. Oils with an iodine number greater than 130 are considered drying, those with an iodine number of 115-130 are semi-drying, and those with an iodine number of less than 115 are non-drying. On this scale, Linseed oil = 170 – 204 is highly drying, Walnut oil = 150 – 167 is also drying, but Olive oil = 80 – 88 is non-drying.
I did not see any big problems with drying of Walnut oil, perhaps because it dries quite slowly, but Raw Linseed dries very fast, probably because it contains a lot of α-linolenic acid which is triple-unsaturated. (I see it absorbs a significant amount of oxygen from the air in the bottle overnight.)
To answer your question, I was recommended to use Walnut oil by a friend who french polishes several pianos each year. I have asked him whether he has tried linseed oil and I will let you know the answer.
I definitely don't want to go back to Walnut oil as it doesn't work consistently well, and sometimes it doesn't work at all!
However, I'm going to try virgin olive oil this evening and I'll let you know how it goes.
Cheers, Peter
Hello Peter,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your reply, and in-depth details about the chemical properties of the various oils, this was interesting to read. I would recommend that you continue to use Linseed oil as this is a tried and trusted oil amongst French polishers.
The thing about piano French polishers it that, they only usually only work on piano cabinets, and therefore they just have to achieve the highest shine possible so it doesn't matter how they get there. Years ago now I used to watch piano polishers while they worked, and once they had French polished the cabinets they would hand buff the surface using a mild acid and French chalk and they would burnish with the palm of their hands until they were sore.
Now most pianos are spray finished and buffed with pads to achieve the same finish. Piano polishers only usually had to work with either black or perhaps Mahogany colours and they found it hard when it came to matching up odd timbers. Where an all round French polisher can polish both pianos and furniture.
You say you are from York, I have been there once and love the Minster it is just stunning. I hope this will be of interest to you once again thanks for your attention. Regards Andrew.
Hello Andrew
ReplyDeleteI tried using olive oil on a (french polished) table top I'd just rubbed down with 600 wet & dry (dry), as the first coat after rubbing down is the most difficult, I presume due to the huge surface area of micro-grooves. It went exceptionally well, and indeed this is the first time that I have achieved full gloss all over for this first coat.
I did try a few rubs with linseed oil, and it was fine. It does seem more lubricious than olive oil, but its performance seems about the same.
Considering the issue of drying, I think my strategy will be to use olive oil and keep linseed oil in reserve as Plan B if I run into problems.
Cheers, Peter
Hi Peter,
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like you are now on the correct path, remember to always use a fresh clean rubber for each job that you do, as some polishers keep their rubbers for ages.
Glad to have been of help in your quest to improve your French polishing.
Regards, Andrew.
Brilliant blog! Lots of useful tips and advice on how to master the art of French polishing- I don't suppose you would be interested in sharing it on Glipho? We're a new social blogging site with an active community of creative bloggers, many of whom write about home decor and DIY projects- I know they would be very interested to see your work here! If you like, come have a look around at http://glipho.com and see what you think. You can import all your old posts over from here to Glipho too, without affecting your existing blog!
ReplyDeleteThanks for your time! All the best,
Teo
Hello, and thank you for your kind remarks however, I do not wish to join your Social Blogging Site however, your readers are more than welcome to enjoy looking at my work and posts.
DeleteThanking you for your interest in my Blog site.
Regards, Andrew.
Hi, I wonder if you can tell me if there are any good French Polishing courses around, I live in North Hampshire, and none of the colleges seem to do anything like this.
ReplyDeleteThanks in advance,
Dear Caroline,
DeleteI have just searched on the internet for French polishing courses in Hampshire, and found this one! They are located in Swanmore, Hampshire.
You can contact them at: mail@hampshire-antique-restoration.co.uk
I do not know anything about this course and therefore, only trying to help you.
I have seen that they charge £180.00 per day££££££ I will keep my thoughts to myself. I hope this will be of some help to you. Thank you for your interest in my Blog and French polishing I wish you well.
Regards Andrew.
Many thanks - mmm a bit expensive. Thankyou for your help, I had seen this,but was asking in case you had any contacts! Just incase!
ReplyDeleteI got many useful tips what I was looking for.I will try tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteThanks Andrew
Hello Zoltan,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your kind remarks, I am glad that you have found some useful information on my Blog.
Thanks Andrew.
Hi Andrew,
ReplyDeleteI need your help.
Please, could you tell me how to remove the oil from the surface. Everything is going well I have a nice finish but in the end when I want to remove the oil it's just goes cloudy.:( I haven't done french polishing for 21 years so I have difficulties to remember how I did it.
Many thanks
Zoltan
Hi Zoltan,
DeleteThanks for your message, well it sounds like you may be using too much oil and that is why you are unable to remove it. Try diluting your French polish and change the rag on your rubber more frequently as this will help to remove the oil.
Or you might be better off, using a product called finishing spirits this is ready mixed shellac and meths and can be purchased from Morrells Wood-finishes, check on the internet for your nearest stockist.
I hope this will e of help to you?
Let me know how you get on, good luck with your project.
Regards,
Andrew.
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteThanks for taking the time to create this site - it is very helpful!
I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind.
1) Can you recommend a book or two on French polishing?
2) Sometimes I end up with very small nibs embedded in the surface of the work piece. I keep the shop very clean so I know it is not from dust/dirt. They seem to appear near the end of the bodying stage. Any thoughts?
3) Have you published the steps you use to French polish?
Thanks again for a great site.
dlb
.
Andrew,
DeleteI have just one question, if you don't mind.
Can you explain the purpose of using oil when French polishing and exactly when to use it?
I have some thoughts on this but wanted to defer to an expert.
Thanks,
dale
.
Oil is used as a lubricant that allows you to be able to polish without dragging, for sometimes hours, and the benefit of oil, is you can push the polish into the grain for a truly high shine. I always polish in circles or figure of eights and this method ensures that I cove all the surface. Just flick on a few drops of oil and give it a try this will take time to remove the oil and a certain amount of skill stick with it and I'm sure you will come to achieve a remarkable finish.
DeleteThanks for your question.
Regards,
Andrew.
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your reply. A couple of observations from your reply:
1) I will use oil during the bodying phase, correct?
2) Does oil get used in any of the phases after bodying?
3) Application of the oil allows for longer polishing periods which will then allow one to spend more time smoothing/stretching/flatening the shellac, correct?
Thanks,
dlb
.
You have a pair of very annoying popups that prevent me from reading anything on your site. As fast as I delete them they reappear. Basically your info is unavailable to anyone trying to access it.
ReplyDeleteWayne
Hi Wayne, thanks for informing me of this problem, from time to time I get hacker's that try to destroy my blogsite perhaps they get fun out of it. Popups can be caused by perhaps:) your computer letting them into your system. I just used the new e browser from windows 10 and all seems well. Together with the many thousands of people that visit and read my info you are the first kind person to inform me I much appreciate it. Please keep me informed if you are continuing to have problems. Regards, Andrew.
ReplyDeleteHi Andrew
ReplyDeleteLove the blog really helpful.
I have a problem with my polishing and wondered if you could please offer advice .
After I have bodied up the piece I am polishing I then leave to dry and paper with 320 to get the surface flat I then polish and oil again . However after removing the oil this time and going with the grain I still leave lines small ridges in the polish when trying to finish off any advice ?
I have been using French polish for about 18 months and have gotten fairly quite good at it - except for the fact that I keep getting specs of dirt in the finish. I have meticulously cleaned the table area and changed to new rags for the fad, but I inevitably find an occasional spec that I have to dig out and repair. Could it be by rag is too porous? I am using pharmaceutical rolled cotton for the inner fad. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteHi, and thanks for coming to my Blogsite.
ReplyDeleteWell, despite you ensuring that there is no dust I feel that you must still be getting dust from somewhere, I had the same problem and I found that the dust was falling form my light tube fittings, and once I cleaned them all was well. Another tip you could try, is to wet the flooring but please be careful not to slip. It could be the rag is not good cotton sheeting, as it's hard to get hold of, most of the rags sold are rubbish nylon and not suited for polishing. Hope that this will help you? Let me know how you get on. Thank for your interest and love of French polishing. Regards, Andrew.
As a furniture maker i have been french polishing sporadically for a couple decades & recently experienced similar problems to the report of (to summarize) "scratches in the finish & dull areas that mottle an otherwise glassy finish and don't polish out". I have removed and recoated the surface of this small desk/hall table 3 times so far.
ReplyDeleteSince it can be months or even a year between episodes of needing to fully polish something, the skills are always a little rusty. This time was especially frustrating. No matter how dry, or how wet the pad, the shellac did not lay out like a vapor - it continually (in harsh light) looked like a roiled mass of small porridge with lots of shiny "liquid" in it. Without oil. With oil. What i've concluded is that the hot weather and humidity in the shop (77% when checked though it felt drier) causes quite a bit of water vapor to condense in the path of the pad and shellac so copiously and in such a way as to be roughly mixed in by the pad. The water leaves porous and poorly laid shellac, which yield the scratch and mottle/cloudy appearance deep in the finish as successive coats are laid over, even with a glassy surface.
2 dehumidifiers are running at the moment. SOP for summers here. I was just a bit late dusting them off and making them operational this spring since we kept having snow so late.
smt
Hi, I apologise for the long delay with my reply. It sounds to me that your prepared surface is not clean enough and still has possibly old wax polish or some other coating still left on the surface causing the French polish to not settle into the grain and therefore giving you an uneven finish. Also do you dilute your French polish? If not I would suggest that you do. I always thin out my polish with Methylated spirits. I use about 75% French polish to 25% Methylated spirits it works fine for me. What oil do you use? I only use linseed oil. Always use clean white sheeting for polishing as nylon, would be useless. The temperature of your workshop should be warm if it's too cold the polish will chill and cause a white bloom affect on the surface. I hope that this will give you some help? Regards, Andrew.
ReplyDelete